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标题: 下限在那里？  人耳能区分水电和火电差别吗？请看神回复 [打印本页]

作者: sundancer 时间: 2014-5-4 09:22
标题: 下限在那里？  人耳能区分水电和火电差别吗？请看神回复
人的耳朵能够区分出水电和火电的差别吗？

在某些耳机论坛看到这样的说法，据说好的耳机效果的确是很牛X，内行的人甚至能区分出水电和火电。总觉得这个不科学，这个差别应该是超出人对声音感知的辨别的范围，求科普。

http://www.zhihu.com/question/20388919

http://www.zhihu.com/question/20388919

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作者: sundancer 时间: 2014-5-4 09:26
标题: Re:下限在那里？  人耳能区分水电和火电差别吗？请看神回复
HIFI 慢慢地变成一个宗*教*信*仰。

作者: sundancer 时间: 2014-5-4 09:26
标题: Re:下限在那里？  人耳能区分水电和火电差别吗？请看神回复

The Ten Biggest Lies in Audio
-----------------------------
By PETER ACZEL, Editor
ISSUE NO. 26 • FALL 2000 THE AUDIO CRITIC

The punch line of Lincoln’s famous bon mot, that you cannot fool all the people all of the time, appears to be just barely applicable to high-end audio. What follows here is an attempt to make it stick.

I strongly suspect that people are more gullible today than they were in my younger years. Back then we didn’t put magnets in our shoes, the police didn’t use psychics to search for missing persons, and no head of state since Hitler had consulted astrologers. Most of us believed in science without any reservations. When the hi-fi era dawned, engineers like Paul Klipsch, Lincoln Walsh, Stew Hegeman, Dave Hafler, Ed Villchur, and C. G. McProud were our fountainhead of audio information. The untutored tweako/weirdo pundits who don’t know the integral of e^x were still in the benighted future.
Don’t misunderstand me. In terms of the existing spectrum of knowledge, the audio scene today is clearly ahead of the early years; at one end of the spectrum there are brilliant practitioners who far outshine the founding fathers.

At the dark end of that spectrum, however, a new age of ignorance, superstition, and dishonesty holds sway. Why and how that came about has been amply covered in past issues of this publication; here I shall focus on the rogues’ gallery of currently proffered mendacities to snare the credulous.

1. The Cable Lie
================
Logically this is not the lie to start with because cables are accessories, not primary audio components. But it is the hugest, dirtiest, most cynical, most intelligence-insulting and, above all, most fraudulently profitable lie in audio, and therefore must go to the head of the list. The lie is that high-priced speaker cables and interconnects sound better than the standard, run-of-the-mill (say, Radio Shack) ones. It is a lie that has been exposed, shamed, and refuted over and over again by every genuine authority under the sun, but the tweako audio cultists hate authority and the innocents can’t distinguish it
from self-serving charlatanry.
The simple truth is that resistance, inductance, and capacitance (R, L, and C) are the only cable parameters that affect performance in the range below
radio frequencies. The signal has no idea whether it is being transmitted through cheap or expensive RLC. Yes, you have to pay a little more than rock
bottom for decent plugs, shielding, insulation, etc., to avoid reliability problems, and you have to pay attention to resistance in longer connections. In
basic electrical performance, however, a nice pair of straightened-out wire coat hangers with the ends scraped is not a whit inferior to a $2000 gee-whiz
miracle cable. Nor is 16-gauge lamp cord at 18

作者: sundancer 时间: 2014-5-4 09:28
标题: Re:下限在那里？  人耳能区分水电和火电差别吗？请看神回复
华尔街日报的文章

http://online.wsj.com/article/NA ... 027492991.html.html

PORTALS JANUARY 16, 2008

If You're Not Insane About Sound, Maybe You Can Just Go Crazy
========================================================================
http://online.wsj.com/article/NA ... 027492991.html.html

If you had to choose between two sets of speaker cables, one costing a few dollars and sounding fine, the other a few thousand dollars but perhaps sounding slightly better, and you chose the second pair, then you would have had a great time last week in Las Vegas.

The city's many goings-on included The Home Entertainment Show, an audiophile trade show held in two small motels off the Strip. Audiophiles, as you probably know, are the hi-fi zealots who think nothing of spending $50,000 on a turntable. I've learned over the years that audiophiles actually come in two varieties: the totally insane and the merely crazy.

The latter have a sense of humor and shrug that theirs is just one of many hobbies -- like wine -- for people with money, expansive vocabularies and the ability to discern differences lost on the rest of us.

By contrast, my interests involve the extent to which beliefs influence perceptions. Scientists have discovered that brain scans of wine drinkers show they physically enjoy a wine more if they think it is expensive. Can audiophiles really hear all the differences they say they can, without being influenced by the brand or price of their equipment?

To find out, Portals became an official exhibitor at T.H.E. Show last week. I set up a room with two sound systems, identical except for one component. Everything except the speakers was hidden behind screens. (A shout-out to Totem Acoustics for the Forest speakers loan and to Magnum Dynalab for the MD-308 amps. They all sounded sensational.)

With the same music playing on both, participants used a remote control to switch between the two, and then tell me which sounded better.

One of the tests compared a high-quality MP3 file from an iPod with a CD on a $3,000 player. Three-quarters of the 24 people taking this test preferred the CD.

That was no surprise. However, when I played .wav files on the iPod -- these are digital but uncompressed files; I was connecting the headphone jack to the amplifier -- 52% of the 21 who took this test preferred the iPod.

That made me smile, not because snooty audiophiles got the "wrong" answer, but because it suggests great sound can come from popular, cheap gear.

I also tested speaker cables, which are controversial even among audiophiles. Some spend tens of thousands of dollars on cabling, while others consider it an absurd waste of money.

Using two identical CD players, I tested a $2,000, eight-foot pair of Sigma Retro Gold cables from Monster Cable, which are as thick as your thumb, against 14-gauge, hardware-store speaker cable. Many audiophiles say they are equally good. I couldn't hear a difference and was a wee bit suspicious that anyone else could. But of the 39 people who took this test, 61% said they preferred the expensive cable.

That may not be much of a margin for two products with such drastically different prices, but I was struck by how the best-informed people at the show -- like John Atkinson and Michael Fremer of Stereophile Magazine -- easily picked the expensive cable.

Its sound was described as "richer," "crisper" and "more coherent." Like some wines, come to think of it.

In absolute terms, though, the differences weren't great. Mr. Atkinson guesstimated the expensive cables sounded roughly 5% better. Remember, by definition, an audiophile is one who will bear any burden, pay any price, to get even a tiny improvement in sound.

Attendance at the show was disappointing, so I didn't get the numbers of participants I wanted. Even if I had, I'm not sure I would have settled anything. These "A-B" tests have limits, including the fact that differences you might not pick up right away can become more apparent with extended listening.

Skeptics out there might think I've gone all mushy and credulous on them.

Not so.

Consider the thriving audiophile product category of power-line conditioners, said to remove noise and distortions caused by your electrical supply, a problem you may not realize you have. A rep from Audience LLC accepted my invitation for an A-B test of the company's $2,800 AdeptResponse aR6 conditioner.

He picked the system using his conditioner -- the other was plugged into the wall -- two out of three times.

Note that the aforementioned "merely crazy" audiophiles say that while they might have home setups costing six figures, the rest of us can get splendid sound for under $1,000 by shopping at specialty audio shops, the sort that sell unfamiliar brands.

I can't help you with brands, but my tests suggest you might want to do your ripping as .wav files. While they take up a lot more room than MP3s, falling disk prices make this feasible even for big collections.

As for cables, good ones can cost well under $2,000. I'd still be happy at the hardware store, but you may be the golden-ear sort who can hear a difference. As in "Dirty Harry," you've got to ask yourself, "Do I feel lucky?"

Well, do you?

Write to Lee Gomes at lee.gomes@wsj.com

Printed in The Wall Street Journal, page B1

作者: sundancer 时间: 2014-5-4 09:35
标题: Re:下限在那里？  人耳能区分水电和火电差别吗？请看神回复
给金耳朵的百万巨奖一直无人认领

James Randi Offers $1 Million If Audiophiles Can Prove $7250 Speaker Cables Are Better

http://gizmodo.com/305549/james- ... r-cables-are-better

http://serato.com/forum/discussion/56534

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1906543/posts

作者: 茗香 时间: 2014-5-4 09:36
标题: Re:下限在那里？  人耳能区分水电和火电差别吗？请看神回复
这类内容适合发在水区 [s:2]

作者: sundancer 时间: 2014-5-4 09:42
标题: Re:Re:下限在那里？  人耳能区分水电和火电差别吗？请看神回复
[quote]引用第5楼茗香于2014-05-04 09:36发表的 Re:下限在那里？

作者: confucius 时间: 2014-5-4 10:06
标题: Re:下限在那里？  人耳能区分水电和火电差别吗？请看神回复
不不，在主站，也就是耳机那边，一些日本动漫头像们特别推崇这些。谁要是敢于牙嘣半个不字，它们立即群起而攻之，甚至人身攻击。

作者: 2b青年爱发烧 时间: 2014-5-4 12:46
标题: Re:Re:下限在那里？  人耳能区分水电和火电差别吗？请看神回复

引用第7楼confucius于2014-05-04 10:06发表的 Re:下限在那里？人耳能区分水电和火电差别吗？请看神回复 :
不不，在主站，也就是耳机那边，一些日本动漫头像们特别推崇这些。谁要是敢于牙嘣半个不字，它们立即群起而攻之，甚至人身攻击。

那些一般都是土豪。土豪的世界我们不懂的。

作者: zhangdu 时间: 2014-5-4 15:24
标题: Re:Re:Re:下限在那里？人耳能区分水电和火电差别吗？请看神回复

引用第8楼2b青年爱发烧于2014-05-04 12:46发表的 Re:Re:下限在那里？人耳能区分水电和火电差别吗？请看神回复 :

那些一般都是土豪。土豪的世界我们不懂的。

灰质颜色不对,白质裂缝太大[s:2]

作者: sundancer 时间: 2014-5-4 15:41
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作者: sundancer 时间: 2014-5-4 15:44
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作者: sundancer 时间: 2014-5-4 15:47
http://www.theaudiocritic.com/ba ... dio_Critic_26_r.pdf

作者: reent 时间: 2014-5-4 15:48
洗洗睡吧 [s:2]

作者: aristurtle 时间: 2014-5-4 17:42
我就很好奇，JS在吹水的时候到底有没有内疚感呢？

作者: sundancer 时间: 2014-5-4 17:45

引用第15楼aristurtle于2014-05-04 17:42发表的 :
我就很好奇，JS在吹水的时候到底有没有内疚感呢？

性工作者在数钱的时候到底有没有内疚感呢？

我也很好奇。

作者: 24k金耳朵 时间: 2014-5-4 18:29
[s:5] [s:5] [s:5]

作者: 痕迹135513 时间: 2014-5-4 20:40
催眠别人首先要催眠自己。不管你信不信，技术性来说，电源的差异肯定对最终设备产生影响，就如随身听所用的1.5v电池，同样1.5v的电池因牌子不同也会影响到最终设备的播放效果。技术性来讲，电池的内阻不同，放电速度也各不同。 [s:2]

作者: 白老大 时间: 2014-5-4 20:54
标题: Re:下限在那里？  人耳能区分水电和火电差别吗？请看神回复

引用第16楼sundancer于2014-05-04 17:45发表的 :

性工作者在数钱的时候到底有没有内疚感呢？

.......

我更想知道她/他们工作时是否有快感.

作者: 白老大 时间: 2014-5-4 20:57
标题: Re:下限在那里？  人耳能区分水电和火电差别吗？请看神回复
想问电解电放久了不用,会有何问题?

作者: confucius 时间: 2014-5-4 21:14
标题: Re:Re:下限在那里？  人耳能区分水电和火电差别吗？请看神回复
[s:2] [s:2]

引用第19楼白老大于2014-05-04 20:54发表的 Re:下限在那里？人耳能区分水电和火电差别吗？请看神回复 :

我更想知道她/他们工作时是否有快感.

到时候你问问她们不就知道了？

作者: sundancer 时间: 2014-5-5 05:33
标题: Re:Re:下限在那里？  人耳能区分水电和火电差别吗？请看神回复
[quote]引用第7楼confucius于2014-05-04 10:06发表的 Re:下限在那里？

作者: zhangdu 时间: 2014-5-5 09:04
标题: Re:下限在那里？人耳能区分水电和火电差别吗？请看神回复

引用第18楼痕迹135513于2014-05-04 20:40发表的 :
催眠别人首先要催眠自己。不管你信不信，技术性来说，电源的差异肯定对最终设备产生影响，就如随身听所用的1.5v电池，同样1.5v的电池因牌子不同也会影响到最终设备的播放效果。技术性来讲，电池的内阻不同，放电速度也各不同。 [s:2]

如果使用不同牌子的电池有影响，那么有两点原因，第一，两种电池性能差别太大，我说的意思是其中有一种可能已经不具备基本的性能，比如快放完电了；第二，这个随身听的供电没有合格的处理，比如稳压！！

作者: arron2004 时间: 2014-5-5 19:43
楼主，你居然听不出水电和火电的区别？？？

作者: sundancer 时间: 2014-5-5 19:47

引用第24楼arron2004于2014-05-05 19:43发表的 :
楼主，你居然听不出水电和火电的区别？？？

文西，你最近研究点什么？

拿你命3000 ...

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作者: manvswild 时间: 2015-2-15 15:53
现在不管什么模式发电还不是要发电机推动才能发电脱离了发电机能大功率的发电吗

作者: arron2004 时间: 2015-2-16 20:42
水电人声润，火电听交响比较好听。

作者: trolololocat 时间: 2015-2-22 00:53
我只知道供电不好的地方，白天晚上能听出区别。
明显白天的燥。。。
这有可能是电压不稳之类的原因造成的。
其他情况下，真没感觉到过····

作者: arron2004 时间: 2015-2-28 08:55
好像和咸菜搭配也有关系，纯银线对电敏感，能听出很多细节。各位咸菜专家怎么看？

作者: manvswild 时间: 2015-2-28 22:44
你们太幽默了

作者: wilderabc 时间: 2015-3-3 17:49
对于高阻低敏的喇叭和耳机，音频线的一点差异可以说影响甚微，对于低阻高敏的喇叭和耳机，影响也不是很大。毕竟只是一条线，质量过关不过关，阻抗差那么0零点几欧姆而已。但对于整个系统而言，每一个阶段都精益求精，都差那么一点，最终的听感可能会有可闻的变化。但是为了这一点可能听到的可闻变化，系统的投入，却可能是要十倍、几十倍……

作者: javelin167 时间: 2015-3-9 16:29
1、关于咸菜，这已经是属于材料学深度研究的领域了，与玄学无关。至于能否听得出来，看你耳朵和器材的素质了；
2、胆与石的音色区别如此之大，居然还能说成是谎言，无畏或无知？用石来仿胆？这个尝试已经无数人努力了几十年，但依然胆还胆，石还石，一样可以听得出来。我喜欢胆色，你喜欢石色，这本来就是两条不同的道路选择，你硬要说胆色是谎言，那我就只能呵呵了。

作者: 德律风根 时间: 2015-3-9 17:09
[quote]引用第25楼sundancer于2014-05-05 19:47发表的 :

作者: manvswild 时间: 2015-4-29 02:26
那些人应该把高压线缆插到耳朵来感受水电，火电，核电的威力了。

作者: myanata9439 时间: 2015-11-10 12:58
[s:2] 难道都不知道有电网这个东西？水电火电核电并入电网后是怎么分身的？又是怎么滋溜一下单独进你家的？

作者: myanata9439 时间: 2015-11-10 12:59
[s:2]

作者: 舜之潇湘 时间: 2015-11-10 21:04
这不算什么。极品器材+金耳朵是可以听出线材的原材质产自哪座矿山。

作者: archqu 时间: 2015-11-30 12:13

引用第37楼舜之潇湘于2015-11-10 21:04发表的 :
这不算什么。极品器材+金耳朵是可以听出线材的原材质产自哪座矿山。

老板，来一根82年矿石做的音频线。

作者: ortho 时间: 2015-11-30 22:42
标题: Re:Re:下限在那里？人耳能区分水电和火电差别吗？请看神回复

引用第23楼zhangdu于2014-05-05 09:04发表的 Re:下限在那里？人耳能区分水电和火电差别吗？请看神回复 :

如果使用不同牌子的电池有影响，那么有两点原因，第一，两种电池性能差别太大，我说的意思是其中有一种可能已经不具备基本的性能，比如快放完电了；第二，这个随身听的供电没有合格的处理，比如稳压！！

看到发这帖子的人被禁言了，不知道什么情况

作者: supersuper 时间: 2015-12-1 09:46
标题: Re:Re:Re:下限在那里？人耳能区分水电和火电差别吗？请看神回复

引用第39楼ortho于2015-11-30 22:42发表的 Re:Re:下限在那里？人耳能区分水电和火电差别吗？请看神回复 :

看到发这帖子的人被禁言了，不知道什么情况

和zf一样

作者: 明天的西瓜 时间: 2015-12-2 14:05
标题: Re:下限在那里？人耳能区分水电和火电差别吗？请看神回复
请问哪家是纯火电，哪家是纯水电，电网都是随时调配的。

作者: 毒日头 时间: 2015-12-3 09:26
楼上“sundancer”里面贴的最后的一段关于金耳朵与汽车机械师类比的一段解释精辟非凡：“他的耳朵可不见得比你的好。他只不过知道要去听些什么。其实你也可以做到，如果你也像他那样处理过那么多的引擎的话。”
对此我深有体会，个人算个资深程序员，10多年来见过很多大型软件系统，很多在新手摸不着头脑的问题。但在我这都可以很快定位，之后那些精力旺盛的小伙子解决问题的速度我可是远远比不上的 [s:2]
引用帖子里的一句话：“那些经过训练和有经验的人知道那些声音是由什么组成的，知道怎么解释和表达出来。”
[s:52]

作者: bigfoot_13 时间: 2015-12-10 15:55
标题: Re:下限在那里？  人耳能区分水电和火电差别吗？请看神回复
我的几点看法：

1. 供电情况对音质的影响。
首先可以肯定，市电供电情况对音质是有影响的。举个简单例子：很多手机插耳机录音，如果再插上充电器就会有干扰，如果在充电器所在插排上在开一个节能灯，干扰就会更大。这个在录音领域更明显，这就是为什么很多专业录音设备使用电池供电。对于声音回放，这种电源引入的干扰对音质也是有一定影响的，但是这个影响程度有多大我不敢说。至少我没有遇到明显的电源明显回放效果的案子。另外，像这种近端的电源干扰，比所谓水电火电的影响大了不知道多少个数量级。至于电源处理器这种东西，确实可能会有一定用途。我也试过用类似设备来测试上面插充电器耳机录音的情况，确实有很大改善。但是对于普通用户来说没什么意义。

2. 电子管
电子管的音质与晶体管确实是有明显差别，其失真的谐波分布是一个重要因素，偶次谐波多很多。而人耳在低频频段2%偶次谐波的听感甚至好于0.1%的奇次谐波。目前业界对于声功率放大器的测试方法其实是不能反映人耳听感的，仅仅是一个最低要求而已。就是说满足了不一定好，不满足就一定不好。对于电子管在音响领域的音质表现，是晶体管无法替代的。

3. 听音测试
完善设计的、严谨的听音测试是音质评价里面一个不可或缺的重要环节。在ITU-T规范中对于听音测试的组织、执行、数据统计有着非常完整的阐述。ITU-T P.57中甚至通过大量听音测试量化阐述了戴耳机听音乐时普通佩戴以及额外施加压力两种情况，人耳感受到的频响的差别。而对于ABX的方法，前提必须是第三者进行操作，而且听音人员必须经过训练，样本数必须足够。说听音测试无用的言论是不科学的。
PS，Harman How to Listen这个软件大家用过吧，Harman公司内部参与听音测试的员工，必须能达到7级以上。你是多少呢？

4. 线材及双线分音
还是举个简单的例子：信号发生器通过信号线接到分析仪，在分析仪端带上32ohm负载。如果用三根线，声道分离度比四根线要低甚至几十个dB。线越短、阻抗越小，差别就越小。说明线材的质量以及双线分音还是有其道理的。但是还是那句话，测出来有区别，不一定能听出来。顺便说一点，现在的手机耳机输出声道分离度如果用RMAA之类的东西测测，哪个都能七八十dB，但是实际带32ohm负载模拟插上耳机音乐播放，能达到45dB就算是很好的了，有的甚至才二十几dB……

5. 煲机
对于耳机、扬声器、电解电容、电子管，必须要长期煲。其他东西我持保留意见，开机一段时间热起来就行了。

6. 数字
如果44.1kHz足够，为什么业界要有192kHz的DVD-Audio？数字信号是够稳定了，但是这种方法用来还原自然界模拟的声音本身就是有缺陷的，只能无限近似，这两者根本是两码事。但是实际上，听不出来有什么区别。

其他几条我不予置评。

最后跟土豪们说一声：花那么些冤枉钱还不如多听几场音乐会提高一下自己的音乐修养。同样，各位烧友也必须要知道什么是正确的声音，才能玩的好。

作者: duanmengjun 时间: 2015-12-30 08:49
标题: Re:下限在那里？人耳能区分水电和火电差别吗？请看神回复
我的电脑是联想的，之前用的是出厂的xp系统及驱动。长时间使用之后，系统越来越慢，前不久重装了DB w7，并使用驱动之家软件自动安装驱动。结果两个系统的音质有明显区别，即便在w7系统下换回出厂的声卡驱动也是如此。xp系统声音柔和醇厚，w7系统冷冽寡淡。

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